Curse

Sankt Hallvard · Jan 20, 2010, 04:35 AM // 04:35

What I find most interesting in this thread is that most of you focus on getting "a good pug" in terms of being efficient. Bring res, bring attunement, synergise etc.

I would never pug with a group with flawless builds off of wiki. What a fooken bore. Pugging is all about seeing people run funky stuff, do stupid things, accept escort of souls, restore and wrathful spirits all at once. Rage at each other, type random comments, get awed at each others armor or other trivialities. I pug to see drama, new situations and near wipes happen when you don't expect them and try to adapt, etc.

Once again it's been confirmed. I'm different.

qvtkc · Jan 20, 2010, 08:54 AM // 08:54

I'd like to say that I'm not looking for perfect wiki builds. If I wanted that I'd be going heroway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Saying how Rt primary is "much better" in spirit spamming is a joke, what is it better in, having 1 point in Channeling and Communing more? Oh yea, you do 200 dmg per second, and this way you do 210. Big deal.

Elementalists and Mesmers (as well as others sometimes) use spirit spam in HM because that's the best thing they can do if they want to do damage without exploiting some PvE skills. If anyone has problem with x/Rt's, then complain to ANet. And if you have a problem with this, then tell me what Elementalist build will do more damage in HM than E/Rt spirit spammer? That's right, none.

That's right. And, of course, completely beside the point. That point being SoS rits swarming all over every zmission outpost (which is the only place you'll reliably get PUGs anyway) and that even if they are only slightly better than an E/Rt, why not take the primary rit?
As elementalist or mesmer you could do much else than that. Even in HM, elemental AoE damage is quite welcome sometimes, not to mention that eles have huge defensive capabilities (a warder with Blurred Vision does more for defense than an imbagon does). Those are just examples.
Also I find it ironic that you say "others sometimes" because I mostly see it on assassins and rangers for some reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrisworld

Really? Actual playing Experience? I've pinged builds that I have used personally (from experience) that get the job done flawlessly in any area I'm doing.

Yet, when retards see my pinged build and then use their brain to match up skill icons and making assumptions in less then 1.5 seconds rather then looking how the skills fit together and work for the area, I get kicked from the party. Then I proceed to PM the idiot who kicked me and either see that I've been ignored or he continues to call me a n00b.

I see. While I'm sure you are one of the rare golden snowflakes that won't melt in the fire, I do understand your problem. Look at it this way: if they are close minded, did you really want to play with them?
In either case, I plan on writing another post about actually setting up leading a party, where I will mention this problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

So you see, it's all about anonimity. Root problem. People do something because they can and because there is no likely retribution.

Anonymity is a great problem as well as a great benefit. People don't do stuff because they can but because they want to. Being able to do what you want is great, as long as you want to do what is right.
See above as I will discuss this as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

So generally HERE this thread is preaching to the choir, the real trick would be to get simple info like this to the general population..

lol yeah. However I believe that more people than you'd think stop by Guru to read stuff quite often even if they don't post, and I hope that some of them picks up on this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShivaTwoDelta

Most who don't ping won't talk in team chat either. They can invite you, but after that it ends.
(...)
Hello Lydia.

Not talking in team chat usually means that they won't communicate much at all. Such people often don't care about the team, and thus have no place in it. We are all better off if the people we play with are engaged in the game! So always keep an eye open for what's being said in team chat.

Hello Shiva.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Because instant full hp / full energy res which also boosts heals = good? With HB, restore life is half cast, combine this with a healing prayers weapon set and you're good to go.

Casting time and amount of health/energy after you have been rezzed only really matters if you are combat rezzing. And non-UA monks should not combat rez, ever.

Reverend Dr · Jan 20, 2010, 09:30 AM // 09:30

UA is fine on a monk, the reason being is that it is incredibly useful outside of just rezing.

Restore life is horrible on anyone. I've brought rebirth on monks before, but that is as a last ditch save the group, get everyone's dead corpse out, non-combat rez; I can't really say that it has every ultimately been worth bringing (other than to cover up for terrible builds and terrible players, which isn't a reason to bring anything).

Also feel free to drop all rezes if you bring rez scrolls.

The Josip · Jan 20, 2010, 10:37 AM // 10:37

I'm all for monk having a rez because when I play as a Mesmer I can only bring rez sig, since my secondary is usually locked to As or Ele. Other group members might be in same situation. Considering how likely it is that PuG will die, and die often, some permanent rez on a monk is highly desirable and usually proves more useful than minor gain from 8th heal/prot skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

why not take the primary rit?
As elementalist or mesmer you could do much else than that. Even in HM, elemental AoE damage is quite welcome sometimes, not to mention that eles have huge defensive capabilities (a warder with Blurred Vision does more for defense than an imbagon does). Those are just examples.

That's a paper example. Post here a full 8-skill build of Elementalist in HM, that in your opinion would be more useful than E/Rt.

Im also not sure about warder doing more for defense than imbagon but I've never played imbagon so maybe someone can comment on that (imbagon dmg also counts of course).

Quote:

Anonymity is a great problem as well as a great benefit. People don't do stuff because they can but because they want to. Being able to do what you want is great, as long as you want to do what is right.

Which means that anonimity is a great benefit.. but only to 'criminals'. Exactly what I'm talking about. How many people who 'do what is right' need anonimity in GW? When you help someone in the mission, you don't really care whether others know or not. But when you scam someone, don't pay a run etc, you want anonimity.

I blame Guru and GWO for that as well. They help these 'criminals' to remain anonimous. Part of the responsibility is therefore theirs as well. For instance, when some people were leeching in Fort Aspenwood all day long, it wasn't allowed to post on the forum who they are. Because anonimity was sacred. Well, those who support such 'sacred' things are quite similiar to those who do them.

Amy Awien · Jan 20, 2010, 11:02 AM // 11:02

The people who want naming and shaming so badly are usually even bigger criminals.

The Josip · Jan 20, 2010, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

The people who want naming and shaming so badly are usually even bigger criminals.

Really, how so?

Naming and shaming works. But you probably prefer keeping things hidden like Catholic church their pedophiles in Ireland and elsewhere.

Btw, sociology studied the rise of crime in communities which consisted of a large number of immigrants, who were anonimous in their new 'environment'. In their old country the 'environment' they came from was rather peaceful with low crime. They also noticed that crime used to drop after a while, as everyone started to be familiar with one another and things such as 'naming and shame' were again established.

Dzjudz · Jan 20, 2010, 12:28 PM // 12:28

I love how people always say "monks shouldn't combat-res, ever." I can see that in PvP this would pose a problem (other team sees monk ressing -> instant spike in unprotected moment). In PvE however, you usually have 2 monks. 1 monk can keep the team from falling apart in the 2 seconds (or less) it takes to res someone, trust me

. AI doesn't recognise ressing as a GOGO-SPIKE-NOW moment.

the_jos · Jan 20, 2010, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

I'm all for monk having a rez because when I play as a Mesmer I can only bring rez sig, since my secondary is usually locked to As or Ele. Other group members might be in same situation. Considering how likely it is that PuG will die, and die often, some permanent rez on a monk is highly desirable and usually proves more useful than minor gain from 8th heal/prot skill.

First a little on topic.
When a res is needed and the skill does not fit on the bar use scrolls.
Make sure people understand that you use scrolls.
Monk with res is not-optimal, it's the monk's job to keep people alive, not to clean up the mess others make (we talk PvE....).
Hard res should be on midline, not on backline. When none of the 2 or 3 midline players cannot go /Mo or /Rt the team should reconsider the team build.
Only exception is UA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Which means that anonimity is a great benefit.. but only to 'criminals'. Exactly what I'm talking about. How many people who 'do what is right' need anonimity in GW?

I will give an example I read about a while ago.
In some 'primitive cultures/tribes' there are almost no reported mentally ill people in hospitals and sanctuaries and such.
Someone went to investigate and found out that those cultures do have people we consider mentally ill. Some of those people even killed other people in rage or were behaving bad very often.

You know what those close groups said? We know this.... The killer lost his mind when he killed, we cannot blame him/her for that moment of insanity, it was not him.
And about the bad behaving people? Oh, that's him, we know about him and take care about him. He cannot help he's that way, but is part of our group and we help whoever is our group.

Since our society does not function that way and puts everyone who behaves not according to rules and regulations outside society we need anonimity. Or improve society, but that's not going to happen any time soon.
Since GW is mainly a reflection of western society expect to see the same behaviour there.
So we 'demand' naming and shaming to push people out of 'our GW society', while this naming and shaming has no proven historic track-record for actually working in the real world.....

qvtkc · Jan 20, 2010, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Also feel free to drop all rezes if you bring rez scrolls.

Yup, just as UA is the exception to step 3, scrolls are the exception to step 2. Also, of course, every team member don't need to bring a rez everywhere. In some places the chance of death is just so tiny, 3-4 rezes are sufficient. In others, it's basically insanity to not take a rez (skill or scroll).

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

I'm all for monk having a rez because when I play as a Mesmer I can only bring rez sig, since my secondary is usually locked to As or Ele. Other group members might be in same situation. Considering how likely it is that PuG will die, and die often, some permanent rez on a monk is highly desirable and usually proves more useful than minor gain from 8th heal/prot skill.

Hard rez should be put on characters who are completely efficient without using a secondary, or whose professions already include a hard rez. Examples would be warrior and ritualist, respectively.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

That's a paper example. Post here a full 8-skill build of Elementalist in HM, that in your opinion would be more useful than E/Rt.

Earth Attunement
Ebon Hawk
Glowstone
Churning Earth
Unsteady Ground
Eruption
Ward Against Melee (other ward if needed)
Resurrection Chant

This build provides lots of knockdown and defense against melee, as well as providing decent damage as long as AI movement can be controlled. Its DPS is of course less than a spirit spammer, but as I already have explained, taking this ele makes it possible to take a Rt/X SoS, which would be better than a E/Rt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Which means that anonimity is a great benefit.. but only to 'criminals'. Exactly what I'm talking about. How many people who 'do what is right' need anonimity in GW? When you help someone in the mission, you don't really care whether others know or not. But when you scam someone, don't pay a run etc, you want anonimity.
(...)
Because anonimity was sacred. Well, those who support such 'sacred' things are quite similiar to those who do them.

No, not only for criminals. Anonymity means that all social pressure is removed, including such pressure that would lead you to commit questionable actions. Also, if you are anonymous and still do what is right, you are actually a moral person, much more so than if you do what is right because you are socially obliged to do so.
While this is an interesting topic (despite being off topic), I'd need to know how much sociology/psychology you have studied before I can discuss it with you.
Of course, the ban on posting in-game names here without permission is to prevent abuse.

The Josip · Jan 20, 2010, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by the jos

When a res is needed and the skill does not fit on the bar use scrolls.
Make sure people understand that you use scrolls.
Monk with res is not-optimal, it's the monk's job to keep people alive, not to clean up the mess others make (we talk PvE....).
Hard res should be on midline, not on backline. When none of the 2 or 3 midline players cannot go /Mo or /Rt the team should reconsider the team build.

Problems I see here:

1. You are saying that to solve pug problem one should waste money on pugs; rez scrolls, various boosts. Yes I have rez scrolls in case of emergency but I should not have to pay for pug incompetence. Id rather waste it on guildies.

2. You say that a leader of a pug group should tell to people who have no rez and locked secondary profession, to buy rez scrolls. Mmmm yea good luck.

3. Youre saying its monks job to keep people alive but others dont have a job? You see, job of 6 people is to deal damage or mitigate it. Using the same logic, they shouldnt take rez either because they are doing damage. And with enough damage and support less healing is needed.
Monk in pve can heal very well with 7 skills. This isnt PvP. You dont need condition removal or hex removal, dont need antispike skills such as shield bash or whatever is used in pvp these days. Thats right, my pve monk has neither condition nor hex removal and i couldnt care less.

Basically what im saying is that when i monk i want others to inflict a lot of damage. What I dont want is have MeA switch to MeMo so he can get Rebirth, and thus losing half of his firepower. I dont like when i monk and have to wait 5min for each mob to die.

4. That usual PuG team will be organized as highly organized team, spending 20min just getting proper people.

Quote:

while this naming and shaming has no proven historic track-record for actually working in the real world...

Yes it is proven and there were even sociology tests by western scientists. Just because youre not familiar with it doesnt mean it doesnt exist. And no, I cant give you link, Ive studied that at my university among other things. I didnt search internet data and dont feel like now.

Quote:

will give an example I read about a while ago.
In some 'primitive cultures/tribes' there are almost no reported mentally ill people in hospitals and sanctuaries and such.
Someone went to investigate and found out that those cultures do have people we consider mentally ill. Some of those people even killed other people in rage or were behaving bad very often.

You know what those close groups said? We know this.... The killer lost his mind when he killed, we cannot blame him/her for that moment of insanity, it was not him.

My conclusion would be that primitive tribes have primitive rules and views.

I take it you concluded how lovely people are who tolerate bad deeds and how noble that is? Alright, then we will have to differ here, because I thing such mentality only someone like them can have. So if some maniac is killing other people around because he is mentally ill (kinda obvious isnt it) then im all for organizing duck hunt on him and killing him with pleasure and smile. That is my definition of noble.

MasterSasori · Jan 20, 2010, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Hard rez should be put on characters who are completely efficient without using a secondary, or whose professions already include a hard rez. Examples would be warrior and ritualist, respectively.

Earth Attunement
Ebon Hawk
Glowstone
Churning Earth
Unsteady Ground
Eruption
Ward Against Melee (other ward if needed)
Resurrection Chant

This build provides lots of knockdown and defense against melee, as well as providing decent damage as long as AI movement can be controlled. Its DPS is of course less than a spirit spammer, but as I already have explained, taking this ele makes it possible to take a Rt/X SoS, which would be better than a E/Rt.

yes though it does give additional support effects, a E/Rt provides superior damage. And the funny thing about pugs is that you don't always get the profession you want. Therefore you must compromise.

BTW, I would run EBSoH over Ward against Melee. Too good.

Amy Awien · Jan 20, 2010, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Really, how so?

Because invariably the people who control this power abuse it for their own and point it at someone who's inconveniencing them.

Quote:

Naming and shaming works. But you probably prefer keeping things hidden like Catholic church their pedophiles in Ireland and elsewhere.

Hardly, I am not like you. But seriously, the naming and shaming thas is so prevalent in those communties has done nothing to stop the abuse.

The problem lies with people not believing the victims because they don't dare to question their own believes, they don't want to be betrayed by those they've put their trust in.

They'll feel no different towards those they thrust to do the naming and shaming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Yes it is proven and there were even sociology tests by western scientists.

Your mistake is believing that this group pressure will automagically result in something that is morally desirable.

syphonus · Jan 21, 2010, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Step 1: Play for the team, and the team will play for you

Agree wholeheartedly.
Step 2: Bring rez

Eh. Because it's pug, I'll give it to you. 3 PvE skills and an elite don't leave much room, though.

Step 3: Remove rez if you are a monk

Good enough for me. And UA is eeeh; I'd feel safer seeing someone with HB on their bar. And I'd much rather see Boon Prot or the like. Otherwise..

Step 3a: Monk with an Ele

Almost impossible to convince a pugger to do this. You have infinite energy.. use it to spam the most useful prots, PvE skills, and heals you can get your hands on at zero cost.

Step 5: Bring a warrior build if you are a warrior

I absolutely agree with this, and I like your attitude.

Step 6: No, you are not a ritualist, unless you actually are a ritualist, of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

You are an elementalist, or a ranger, or an assassin, or a mesmer, and so on, so why do you bring a whole bar full of spirits? [Do what your] profession is made for, nuking, shooting arrows, doing awesome melee damage or just standing around making purple sparks in the air, respectively.

Ele's were made for nuking, five or so years ago. They have ceased to be of any use in that role. Right now they excel at things that require good energy management, such as PvE skills, but requires their elite; however they are not the only one.

Otherwise I sort of agree; the ranger is seriously hindered by the relative unimportance of shutdown and condition applying in PvE. Splinter barrage isn't awful, but it's a far cry from the downright retarded amount of pressure you can get with a sin, or war. If I were a super elitist I wouldn't roll with a ranger, ever, except for gimmick uses. Actually, for the most part I'd just run around with sins, wars, necs, eles(only with ER) and monks(preferably supporting Ele with HB). And a rit, maybe.

Step 7: Don't be a retard
Yes. But don't get your hopes up.

Overall, a very good guide to improve the general quality of pugs. I sincerely hope that there are people to read it.

Daesu · Jan 21, 2010, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Step 1: Play for the team, and the team will play for you
Guild Wars is about teamwork. In a perfect team, you are not playing the 8 skills on your bar - the entire team is playing the 64 skills on the sum total of all teammates' bars, as one entity. Of course no team is perfect, but you can and should still adapt your build to the team. If you have an excessive amount of self-heals, maybe substitute those for some damage skills and let the monks do the healing. If you choose between Vampiric Gaze and Barbs, maybe take Barbs even though you personally can't trigger the effect.

Agree.

Quote:

Step 2: Bring rez
You have 8 slots on your bar. Fill them up. Now remove one skill. Go ahead. Yes, that one, the one that adds like 0.5 to your DPS. You don't need it. What you need to put in there is some skill to revive your fallen teammates. No, the plan isn't that people should die. But you have 7 skills for when everything goes as planned.
And one skill for when nothing does.

I think you are missing a crucial factor to consider here, THE MISSION or QUEST that the team is undertaking. On some missions, it is more crucial to bring a res than on others. The missions would also dictate what kind of res you should or should not bring.

For example, on missions that would automatically fail if the team dies, bringing a res like the Death Pact Signet increases your chance of mission failure. But of course, those who follow Sabway blindly would not know or understand this.

However, Death Pact Signet is an excellent res for HM vanquishing. Why? Because it reduces the chance of the entire team reaching 60DP and be kicked out of HM. That has always been the design of the original Sabway build.

Also some pugs regard Rebirth as a bad res to bring because it drains all your energy. But in many missions, if it has not been for Rebirth, the mission would have been lost. Even though using Rebirth at the wrong time can be disasterous.

Quote:

Step 3: Remove rez if you are a monk
I don't even intend to explain this one.

Most pugs actually expect monks to bring res. Also note that not everyone would be X/Mo, X/P, X/Rt, Rt/X, or P/X in your party.

Should they then bring a res signet instead? Perhaps, but again, the answer lies on the mission or quest that the team is undertaking. On missions that grant frequent morale boost, taking a res sig may just be as good as taking a hard res.

Quote:

Step 4: Put on an attunement if you are ele
I see this on so many elementalists and I don't know why. Packing an attunement will give you back loads of energy for each spell you cast, preventing you from running low so fast. Taking Elemental Attunement means you can spam energy-heavy spells without break pretty much endlessly, though it also means giving up your elite, so it's not recommended. The normal attunement for your chosen element will ensure that you won't run dry in the middle of a protracted battle, or as a result of multiple encounters in quick succession.

Again, this depends on the mission or quest. In areas with lots of enchant removal, I hate bringing attunement. I would rather bring AP+GoLE instead.

Quote:

Step 6: No, you are not a ritualist, unless you actually are a ritualist, of course.
You are an elementalist, or a ranger, or an assassin, or a mesmer, and so on, so why do you bring a whole bar full of spirits? Can't you see all those PvX copycats hanging around the outpost spamming "SoS lfp"? If we wanted a spirit spammer, we'd take one of them (which we probably already did), not you, since they can do a much better job of it than you can. Fear not, though; all is not lost, since you can do a much better job doing what your profession is made for, nuking, shooting arrows, doing awesome melee damage or just standing around making purple sparks in the air, respectively.

As others have said, a R/Rt can be more effective as a rit than as ranger. But unfortunately for them, rits are quite plentiful. A R/Rt having a spirit spammer bar is understandable since rangers badly need a buff, but they should give way to a real rit if available.

qvtkc · Jan 21, 2010, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

E/Rt provides superior damage

Character-wise? Hell yes. But see Step 1. Always consider the team, not your character. Due to opportunity cost, taking an E/Rt means you can't take an Rt/X, since their spirits would "overwrite" each other. Therefore, you must choose only one of them. And since an Rt/X provides superior damage over an E/Rt, taking that earth ele means that your teamwide damage improves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

BTW, I would run EBSoH over Ward against Melee. Too good.

It depends on the area you are playing in, and the rest of your team setup, but generally you are right.

The Josip · Jan 21, 2010, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Character-wise? Hell yes. But see Step 1. Always consider the team, not your character. Due to opportunity cost, taking an E/Rt means you can't take an Rt/X, since their spirits would "overwrite" each other. Therefore, you must choose only one of them. And since an Rt/X provides superior damage over an E/Rt, taking that earth ele means that your teamwide damage improves.

As already stated:

1. The damage E/Rt does compared to Rt/x is almost exactly the same, if players are equally good, and E/Rt can be better if it's a better player. Talking about 'superior build' in this case, and especially PuG case, is just to be nit-picky. Also, when PuG team goes for 'superior builds', this forum is full of posts about profession/title/skillbar discrimination.

2. The team will not always have SoS Rt, and if it accepts SoS Rt Ele or someone else can always change the build. If that doesn't happen, why is it bad if Ele is spirit spammer?

3. That ele *is* thinking about the team. To help the team he took best damage build. He also might not want to play the same build all the time, and since he may not have Rt he tries to have fun with spirit spam on ele.

4. There's actually enough place for two spirit spammers, if the other uses Ghostly Might.

I understand those who want more 'roleplaying' and want each class to stick to their own skills. But you're not using that argument. So in terms of team-usefulness and skill power, that ele is simply adapting to ANet's silly skill balances which on purpose made some skills super-overpowered so that some professions get to see play.

Quote:

Earth Attunement
Ebon Hawk
Glowstone
Churning Earth
Unsteady Ground
Eruption
Ward Against Melee (other ward if needed)
Resurrection Chant

Damage comparison:

* That build: 37 DPS to Master of Damage. In PvE, your aoe spells would hit more foes here and there, but overall everyone would also be higher level.

* E/Rt: 113 DPS. 3x more.

Utility comparison:

* That ele earth has 50% block vs melee.. certainly useful. It has 5/22sec knockdown on attacking foes. 5/33sec window to cause blind for 10sec. Weakness condition. I'd like to point out here we're talking about PuGs and they wont stand in the ward all the time, nor will it be sometimes advisable because monster AoE spells will hurt more.

* E/Rt has spirits that can soak some damage if enemy melee goes on them, and also I used Shadowsong which keeps one permanently blind if placed properly. AoE hexes making it easier for other hexers.

I hope it's now clear why people prefer E/Rt over that earth ele. E/Rt has 3x more damage. It actually has 4x more damage in non-mob situations.

qvtkc · Jan 21, 2010, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

1. The damage E/Rt does compared to Rt/x is almost exactly the same, if players are equally good, and E/Rt can be better if it's a better player. Talking about 'superior build' in this case, and especially PuG case, is just to be nit-picky. Also, when PuG team goes for 'superior builds', this forum is full of posts about profession/title/skillbar discrimination.

No, the Rt/X is really better, even if it's just a little. It's the same reason people take vampiric weapons: hey it's just 3 extra damage per hit, but it's the best allround option and there's no reason to not take it.
Also he will put some points in Spawning Power making his spirits more durable (not that that is usually a problem). Also, Spawning Power makes weapon spells last longer. Most spirit spammers don't bring weapon spells, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

2. The team will not always have SoS Rt, and if it accepts SoS Rt Ele or someone else can always change the build. If that doesn't happen, why is it bad if Ele is spirit spammer?

It's not particularly bad. I usually PUG in Zaishen missions, and those usually have at least 3-4 SoS rits in party search.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

4. There's actually enough place for two spirit spammers, if the other uses Ghostly Might.

True. But even in that case you'd prefer two Rt/X...

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

* That build: 37 DPS to Master of Damage. In PvE, your aoe spells would hit more foes here and there, but overall everyone would also be higher level.

If you try to use an earth ele builds with wards for damage, I seriously suspect that your knowledge of this game isn't that great. The damage is incidental, just like an imbagon's spear damage is incidental. The important part is the AoE knockdown, the AoE blind and the AoE block, making your entire party essentially invulnerable to physicals. All physicals, not just one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

I hope it's now clear why people prefer E/Rt over that earth ele. E/Rt has 3x more damage. It actually has 4x more damage in non-mob situations.

It was always clear. My first post also made it clear why the considerations you mention aren't really appropriate.

reaper with no name · Jan 21, 2010, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Josip, please stop. We've been through this before on another thread. There is no benefit to being a spirit spamming elementalist. None. If you're using spirit spam, it means the party's ritualist can't. That means the party is less effective than it would be if he did spirit spam and you did something else.

Now, if the party doesn't have a rit, that's different, but don't try to pretend that you're as effective as an actual rit. No matter how well you can do it, you are ultimately a pale shadow of a rit. A PUG has absolutely no reason to take you over a ritualist with the same build.

When it comes to ritualist spirit spammer vs any other spirit spammer (including ranger), ritualist always wins.

The Josip · Jan 21, 2010, 09:02 PM // 21:02

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Originally Posted by qvtkc

True. But even in that case you'd prefer two Rt/X...

If I wanted ideal team builds, I'd go with heroes or guildies, not PuGs. If I PuG, it means I decided to sacrifice a lot of performance, and am willing to risk a lot overall (unpredictability of PuGs). That's the whole point here. If I PuG, I'm not going to make a big deal out of 1% damage difference, so to speak.

And if I make a PuG group, I can either
1) ignore dervishes and warriors and assassins, because I think they're only worth it if team build revolves around them (read: buffs); ignore elementalists if they aint E/Mo
2) I can stop being discriminative towards professions which are unlucky due to ANet's current imbalance policy, and agree to let those professions in my group. In which case I'd of course prefer optimal or near-optimal builds (E/Rt..).

PuGing is often letting people play what they want, as long as it gets the job done. We're not doing speed clears here.

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If you try to use an earth ele builds with wards for damage, I seriously suspect that your knowledge of this game isn't that great.

I'm not trying to use earth ele build at all.

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The damage is incidental, just like an imbagon's spear damage is incidental. The important part is the AoE knockdown, the AoE blind and the AoE block, making your entire party essentially invulnerable to physicals. All physicals, not just one.

Yea right. Now that I proved how weak damage on that ele is, you're trying to prove that Earth Henchman is actually Imbagon in disguise. Get real.

Invulnerable? 5/22 seconds knock down on foes that decide to remain in AoE. 5/32 seconds window for causing blind. 5/33 seconds of knock down for those moving faster than normal (read: melee). Weakness. All this overlaps with Ward Against Melee. And, by the way, having your PuG team inside the ward is difficult and risky (AoE) - henchies stand together anyway unless you love microing them, which is why ward against melee is good there.

Not to mention how useless this is when running into mostly non-physical mob, which is usually the most dangerous and the cause of most wipes/deaths. Comparable, E/Rt will have constant firepower regardless of the enemy it faces.

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Originally Posted by reaper with no name

There is no benefit to being a spirit spamming elementalist. None. If you're using spirit spam, it means the party's ritualist can't. That means the party is less effective than it would be if he did spirit spam and you did something else.

You completely missed the point of the discussion. This isn't about what is better: X or Y. It's about if you have to take Y, is Ya better than Yb. I don't know how difficult it is to understand that.

And assuming that *every* PuG group will have Rt spirit spammer is just wrong, in practice *it does not happen*. Even with 1 spirit spammer E/Rt can still use Ghostly Might and remaining spirits the other Rt doesn't use. Still more useful to the team than E/whatever. Now, how often do you see 2 Rt spammers in a PuG team? Exactly.

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Now, if the party doesn't have a rit, that's different, but don't try to pretend that you're as effective as an actual rit. No matter how well you can do it, you are ultimately a pale shadow of a rit.

Stop putting words in other peoples mouth and pay attention to the discussion. Who says E/Rt is as effective as an actual Rt in this thread? No one.

Pale shadow of a rit? Yea right, 1% difference is pale shadow. Sounds like someone is scared of competition.

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A PUG has absolutely no reason to take you over a ritualist with the same build.

A PuG has absolutely no reason to be nit-picky about 1% of damage, and "same builds" happen rarely. There's always some difference among spirit spammers in my PuG teams.

What you're saying has absolutely no touch with reality, and is no use to this discussion. Using the same logic you're using, A PuG would have absolutely no reason to take some professions AT ALL because others are better. But that's not how most PuGs work, nor is it how I or many of us want PuGs to work.

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When it comes to ritualist spirit spammer vs any other spirit spammer (including ranger), ritualist always wins.

Yea, by 1%. And before super-buff to Rt spirits recently, Ranger spirit spammer was better. And so what?

E/Mo is better than prot monk, and so what? Do you see PuGs refusing to take prot monks and instead GLF for E/Mos? No.

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Josip, please stop. We've been through this before on another thread.

You mean in this thread?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0&postcount=70

That post is good example of what I'm talking about. Theory only goes so far. You can say someone is a 'pale shadow of a rit', but practice is something totally different.

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Anyway, I'm done with this discussion. If someone wants to listen to what I say and try things out: cool. The rest of you who want to debate how X/Rt spirit spammers suck or how Herta is best ele build in HM - go ahead.

Smarty · Jan 21, 2010, 09:20 PM // 21:20

8. Resurrect doesn't belong in Hard Mode.

9. If you're a monk (or if you're bringing a monk hero), don't bring a pet on your bar.

I can forgive pretty much anything else (except refusal to ping builds and the lack of attunement on eles, both of which were already covered) but the above two are crimes against humanity.